39 - Stability Over Performance With Special Guest Ric Taylor

Dating after divorce can turn even confident dads into performers. You start chasing the perfect opener, the perfect outfit, the perfect “game,” and somehow you feel worse after every date. We go the other direction with therapist and coach Rick Taylor: confidence is what stability looks like on the outside, and stability is something you build, not something you pretend to have.

We talk about the performance trap and why scripts usually backfire. Yes, learning better communication helps, but the real win is understanding the principle underneath the words so you can speak in your own voice. We also get specific about timing after divorce: giving yourself and your kids time to settle, grieve, and rebuild rhythm before you jump into something serious. If you’ve felt the emotional highs and lows of early post-divorce dating, this is the roadmap back to calm.

Rick shares his framework for masculine purpose as movement toward an outcome, and why so many men feel like they’re “moving in circles” after a marriage ends. Then we bring it down to earth with three pillars that create structure fast: showing up for your kids with predictable routines, rebuilding your body with consistent exercise and simple nutrition, and rebuilding finances with a budget and a monthly surplus even after a financial wipeout. We also cover how to be honest on dates without trauma dumping, and we close with a simple stability audit you can use this week.

If this helped, subscribe, share it with a dad who needs steadier footing, and leave a review so more divorced dads can find the show. What’s the one pillar you’re rebuilding first?

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Rick Taylor

SPEAKER_03 0:20

Hello and welcome to Dad's Dating After Divorce, the only podcast that admits a Roth RAA. Let's try that again. I was so excited about this one, too. That's why my I got tripped up. The only we're just not starting off good. The only podcast that admits a Roth RA is a better wingman than a leather jacket. My name is Gene Sanval, and I am the founder. I wrote that one just for you, Alice. I am the founder of The Divorced Advocate, my co-host, as always, the uncomparable Dalse Bluuth of Black Box Dating. And today we've got a special guest. Very excited to introduce. He is actually the person responsible for this podcast and for Dallas and I meeting some time ago. So if you stay till the end of the episode, we'll give you his contact information and you can send all of your gripes to him about our bad jokes and anything else. From leading Marines and veterans and training with Zambunks to building data centers and navigating the ego traps of modern dating, our guest has seen it all. He's a therapist who's traded the clipboard for real-world scars, helping everyone from corporate CEOs to veterans finding their footing. Whether he's sailing New York Harbor or running barefoot through the Colorado foothills, he's on a mission to help you find joy in the chaos. Please welcome Rick Taylor. Hey Rick.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Hi there.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

So just so you know, you are the first guest that Dallas and I have had on. So I thought that was appropriate because you are the one that introduced Dallas and I some a little like over a little over a year ago, I think now. And so I'm really excited to have you on and uh know Dallas's and have some some fun chatting.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Me too. I've been listening to some episodes. You guys sound like you've been doing this for for decades. Like you should go on the road.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

It feels like we've been doing it for decades. Yeah, no doubt.

Lucky Jacket And Wardrobe Tracking

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Some days we just struggle through it. It's kind of like a marriage at this point, right? Dallas, like, yeah, yeah. Okay, we got through this day, we got through this episode. Okay, we'll go for another one. Let's do it. We re-up. We make that decision to love this podcast another week.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Let me let me let me just ask Jude, if you bring both a Roth IRA and a leather jacket to a date, do you get like double points? Because I bring that with me when I get it.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

I know, and that's why you've got you've got it going on, my friend. And that's why I wrote that for you. I knew you were gonna have a comment about the leather jacket. You know me so for those of you who don't know, Dallas has got a really cool leather jacket that he likes to wear out. So that's why that's why I wrote that kind of tongue in the channel.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Is there such a thing as a lucky, lucky shirt, lucky jacket, lucky socks for dating? Is that a thing, Dallas? God, I hope not.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

So uh there's a shirt.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Stay tuned for the men roll. We'll be selling one for you.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Right. Black box socks. Yeah. Get them while they get them while they're available. Um, there is there is such a thing as wardrobe tracking in your dating. So guys have obviously their favorite shirts that they like to wear. And a lot of times guys want to make sure that they're don't they don't wear the same outfit with the same woman. So they will keep track, at least in the early stages, of what they've worn up to a certain point so that they don't repeat themselves. I don't I I guess you could call those kind of lucky because they're their favorites. But I I don't think we get to the like gym locker room, like I've been wearing these socks all season. Um might work, might work on the football field, not really gonna work in in the in the coffee shop and and movie theater.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Okay, okay, all right. First date wardrobe, second date wardrobe, third date, and then repeat, maybe something like that.

Stability Over Performance In Dating

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Exactly. Yeah, okay. Man, well, I you know, I've never done that now, so maybe we need to do an episode on wardrobe planning. I mean, we did the you know, the the the wardrobe episode, but maybe first date, second date wardrobe planning. That would be that would be some some some some big detail for for the dads listening here. These those are the guys that have really built the foundation and structure for for moving forward, which leads us into what we're gonna talk about today, which is building a foundation versus putting on a show during during dating. And so dads listening, you guys, you know, kind of you get when you get divorced, the first when you get divorced, and one of the initial thoughts you have is oh crap, like I'm in the dating world now, right? So there's this moment, there's this moment of panic, maybe. And and and if any guy's gonna be honest, he's gonna he's gonna say, Yeah, I was like, something like holy shit, or what the heck, or how am I gonna do this, or like some kind of like reckoning. And so what we what we're gonna what we're gonna dive into today is just kind of the thesis that there's all of this noise out there, there's game tactics, there's this, and there's that. And what we want to talk about is why stability is so much more important than performance. So, you know, let's just let's just start out with some comments. And and and and Dallas, if you'll just start us out with some comments around that and why that is really, really important, then let's just dive into that, starting out with the performance trap kind of idea.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Well, if what you're focused on is your performance, you're kind of working from the outside in. Your what is my appearance? How funny am I? What are the reactions that I'm getting? And all this is a very external place. And you can't build from the outside in, you have to build from the inside out. When you start with a calm, cool, collected, grounded foundation, then your natural personality, your natural attractive qualities, your natural um charm and charisma should emanate out from that place. And your performance in that way becomes grounded, it becomes connected, and really, in a lot of ways, it becomes a lot more quiet. And women want to warm up slowly to a guy. They they don't want to, they don't want to like be jumping after, you know, some kind of touchdown dance with a man most of the time. That's not what they're looking for. They're looking for a man who has been winning it over and over again from his core. So that's that's the difference between grounded and performative, and from my take. But Rick, what do you what do you have to say, man? You're the guest, you're bringing a whole new voice to this table.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

This is a great topic. So, guys coming off a divorce have have built some structure, especially if they have kids, a lot of structure. Kids take a lot of structure, and they've partnered with somebody to build that structure, and then they're going through divorce, which un undoes that all that structure, structure. So they have to rebuild it themselves. And then they get back into dating, and I've done it, and uh, there's there's a slow drift into rebuilding structure on my own without my partner, and depending on how the div the marriage was or the relationship and the divorce, the saying goes the divorce goes the way the marriage went. And so a lot of guys will come out of a relationship like that with basically no structure at all because they've allowed their ex to build all of that for them. And other guys are they have some structure, and but they get back into dating thinking, I'm gonna find another partner. They're probably not thinking this. This is very unconscious, but they're gonna find another partner to help co-create new structure. But in the dating world, like you just said, Dallas, that's that's not how it happens. Women are looking for a guy who already has structure. And I I have this saying that confidence is stability. Confidence is what stability looks like on the outside. So what we're really talking about, I mean, there's confidence on the surface, but underneath that is the stability.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

And so So, what I'm what I'm hearing the both of you kind of say is that without having that that structure already designed in your life, having done that that hard work, that basically you're just counting on something that is not authentically who you are, right? So that which is probably one of the reasons why so many guys get caught up. And and I and I'll I'll be honest, I was guilty of this as well. Everything that you guys just described was me post- post-divorce. I did all the wrong stuff, started dating right away, like had done none of this foundational stuff. And what that led to was the the performative stuff, talking, you know, thinking about game theory and reading about game theory and how to do this and how to do that, and like how many, you know, how many dates and how until you do this, and and how long before you do that, and all that stuff. And none of that was authentically who I was, and what didn't allow me the opportunity to bring out who I was, right? It was just me performing. So, you know, the tactics, like we get all these tactics out here, and and and I know we do talk about tactics on our show here, but the taxes that we're talking about are really foundational to what to what you guys are are describing there. So you know, let's just let's just comment on some of the stuff that's out there that is, you know, I I I don't want to diminish all of it because there's a lot of truth in in some of it. But if you're using it as this mask as performative, then it doesn't what you guys described, it doesn't allow who you are to to shine through. And that's what you want, because otherwise you're just gonna be finding people that do not fit. And that's what I have done for you know, I have done for so long. It was the wrong fit because I well, it wasn't me who was there, it was me performing whoever it was, like whatever I was trying to do at the time.

Why Scripts Fail Learn Principles

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dallas, this is your thing.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

What what do you see? So one of the I I get the two top questions that I get is where do I meet women? And then what do I say to a and two, what do I say to a woman when I want to approach when I meet her? And that second one is literally they're asking for a script. There's this idea that there are some magic words out there that we say and her pants just fall off, and we get to take her home and have fun with her. And it's a it's a complete, it's a complete illusion the fact that that exists. However, a lot of what I actually provide for guys is helping them articulate their thoughts in ways that are effective. So what's interesting, and and I I will I will share with them after I help, after I listen to them, I understand where they are, and I figure out, you know, what what what the what the constraint is that they're trying to get past. I'll ask them, hey, is this kind of what you're trying to say? And they'll go, yes, that's it. That that's exactly what I'm shooting for. And then I will, and then I will break apart what I said and why it's effective. And then what I'm doing is I'm I'm showing them the principle underneath the script. And and and the the trick is to you learn the principles. That's something that we that we can learn externally. That's where the tradition of older men, I wish it was still around, to help the younger men understand the principles so that we know how to be effective in a masculine way. But then we have to add the individual identity component, which is what do I actually want to say? What is my voice? And that's what takes it from a performance to uh to an adventure, too, to an in an inhabited, a lived-in experience that we're inviting the woman to share in with us.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah. Hey, Rick, so let me ask you, let me ask you this from a therapeutic mindset. Is this so wouldn't this just create more anxiety? Because if you're just trying to perform something, if the performance doesn't go well, basically, then you're gonna be disappointed, right? So this isn't a strong foundation working backwards from all these theories and ideas to to trying to build the foundation, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Stage fright. It's like you're out on stage and you've got your script, and holy crap, am I gonna be able to perform this? And and and you've got Dallas on and in the back of your mind, like, what did he say?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

And so actually, what's in the back of their mind is what would Dallas do? Which I do, well, actually, which isn't a bad thing, because you know, in a sense, I'm I'm a role model for them. They're wondering what would he do in this situation, not what did Dallas say to do in this situation, right? So it's not a memorized perform thing, it's a principle thing, and you're trying to find it and go, oh, he would he would tell the truth and spin it in a positive way. How do I do that? What do I say to follow that principle?

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Yeah, yeah. So there's this transition that happens, and so I you're working with guys, Dallas, who are kind of at the beginning of that transition, they haven't quite got the language in them, and so they're learning the language.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Yeah.

How Long To Wait To Date

SPEAKER_00 13:40

I'm I'm working with guys who are in it for the long haul, and they're developing their stability in their health, their body, and their finances, in their ability to build relationships. And so little by little they start to develop this just inner confidence, so they don't really have to have a script, they just be themselves. And it's that transition that sometimes it takes a month, sometimes it takes 10 years. And because there is an some self-esteem stuff going on. Well, what if I'm not good enough? That's the big one. I'm not worthy. And especially depending on how that previous relationship went before the divorce, especially at the tail end of any relationship, as it's unwinding, there's a lot of conflict, there's a lot of harsh words, and that those are the last things that we in our last relationship, that's how it went. And so the residue of that previous relationship are still sticking around for guys who are getting back into dating and they've just come off a divorce. I don't know what you guys think about this. What do you think about how long how long should someone wait before they start dating?

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Jude's got his rules, so I'll let him I'll let him speak to that.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Well, so what what I've what I've found personally, but also with with the guys I work with is that getting through at least the seasons post-divorce, like once the divorce is finalized, everything's done, you've got parenting plans, you've got the fine, you know, the financial structure is in, you know, you kind of have an idea of the lay of the land. Now get through full seasons, all four seasons once, because it allows you the opportunity to settle into the new circumstances. It allows your kids to settle into the new circumstances, you to get a new rhythm, uh, create a new rhythm. There's so much work that needs to be done with the the kiddos and providing a place that is safe and secure for them to be comfortable before one being distracted, or two, introducing somebody new. And I speak this from doing the absolute opposite. Honestly. And I look back and it and there were benefits to to what happened, and I see why that it happened. But if I could go back and I could tell my my divorcing self what to do and what might be better for me, that would be the the suggestion that that I would make. And then start with what we're talking about, which is starting to build that foundation, because what happens during divorce is just chaos, right? Like the chaos factors, your your routine is a is is a mess, and your your confidence has taken a hit. We all every time we have a relationship that's that that that is not successful, whether it's dating, whether it's a divorce, we take a little of a concept, a little bit of a confidence hit, right? We kind of think about stuff. We think, well, what what did I do wrong? Is is there something I could do better if you're healthy? If you're not healthy, you you spiral into to much worse self-talk. But and there's emotional volatility too, especially during a divorce, because there's so much you know, so much complexity. And you're going through as you're going through the grieving process for so many different things, which is one thing I don't think one of the things that the divorce dads that I've talked to don't know, I didn't know. You're divorcing, you're you're during your divorce, you're not only going through grieving the end of the relationship, but you're grieving the change of circumstances with your kids, you're grieving maybe selling a house that you built, you're grieving a different lifestyle, like you're grieving all these different things.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

You're you're also grieving the loss of the future. Right. You had a picture of how this was gonna go, and you have to let go of that dream. Like that's a huge thing to grieve as well. Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yeah, exactly. So I did the same thing, Jude, after my divorce, started dating, and I what you just said, if I could go back and tell myself, don't do that, I'd still probably have done it anyway. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

That's true. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's it seems like it's an easy confidence hit. Like, I'm gonna go date, I'm gonna be successful, and I'm gonna take a I'm gonna, it's gonna boost me up. This is what I need. And and and so I have a lot of guys who do that and they come back and they're like, Yeah, I don't think I'm gonna date for a while. And maybe everybody has to go through it a little bit.

Free Agency Without Avoiding Commitment

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Well, so so Jude, you mentioned that every time we are in a relationship and then it fails, we take a hit. And and I completely believe that's true. I believe one of our best, I don't know if it's defenses, but one of our one of our healthiest ways to unhook ourselves from those peaks and valleys, you know, the lows and highs that we hit emotionally, is is to try to feed and nurture and maintain free agency. Because a lot of the times when we go into that relationship and we're like, oh, we're building something, we're doing this, we've found each other, we, we, we. And we I mean there's huge advantages to we when you're building something together. Absolutely. But when you're like, I found my other half, well, a lot of times we give we abandon free agency moment.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

But but when we maintain free agency and we go, well, is this the right woman for me? You know, I've been dating her for a month now. Uh, I've got the hots for her, she's got the hots for me. But I'm going to continue to ask myself, is this the right woman for me? When I maintain that independence and free agency, that helps to level out the peaks and the valleys that the emotions hit. You know, on the high level, you're enjoying it, but you're also realizing, okay, just because we're having like an amazing honeymoon month doesn't mean that we're necessarily, you know, set for life with each other. And when things fail, it's not that I'm a complete failure failure because because the relationship failed. It's like, no, no, no, I was still getting to know her, and that maintaining that free agency is a huge component to that.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Yeah. And when you say and when you say a free agency, that means you haven't committed yet to a committed relationship. Is that what you're saying? Or how do you describe that? Because free agency, you know, Greg Adams talks about you know the free agent life and stuff like that. So define for us what what you're what you mean in free agency.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Uh free agency for me really means uh sidestepping dependency.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

So um it doesn't necessarily you can be committed, but I would say you still want to maintain free agency in that commitment.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

Yeah, and and you yeah, we're not talking about so so so this is more of an intellectual free agency in talking about agency first and being a free agent, not like free agency like in the sports where I'm a free agent and I'm looking to, you know, just do my own thing, get as much money, get as much many women as as possible. That's kind of the the mindset in the in the dating world, is the free agent life and mindset. So that's why I wanted to be clear with with the the listeners because they hear us talking about free agency. It's not the free agency that you're kind of hearing out there. It's your it's your agency and making sure that you're not bound, you know, that you are creating your own life and who you are to bring to that relationship something that you can like bring together, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah, and and Rick, I think this would be a perfect time to talk about one of the diagrams that you shared with us because you have you've got this awesome one where you have, you know, the massive arrow of movement. And I assume this is more or less the masculine journey, the hero's journey. You know, you have this huge arrow of movement, and then you have a whole array of directions you can go in, and then there's the sort of like sunset happy ending, destination, you know, that we're all headed for. And and and I feel like this is a diagram for the masculine free agent. And thank you, Jude, for clarifying that. This isn't just I'm gonna go anywhere, do whatever I want, cavalier style. No, no, no. This is free agency as in I need to find movement and direction and destination for myself as a man. But Rick, it's your diagram.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Please yeah, thanks for bringing that up. Well, so masculinity, the way I I I should say up front, it's basically it's not a clinical diagnosis. It's just a bundle of behaviors and you put a linear.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Can we make this official somehow? Because I feel like honestly, that's lacking.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

I mean I know. Clinical it it people anyway, so

SPEAKER_03 22:19

That's a whole nother episode, Dallas.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. Masculinity's got three parts. Masculinity is always moving. And and I should say most men are mostly masculine with a little bit of femininity, and most women are feminine with a little bit of masculinity. So masculinity wants to be moving. And a lot of men, when they and so masculinity is moving in a direction, like you said, Dallas, for a particular outcome or some purpose. A lot of guys have been their purpose has been sabotaged or it's been given away or it's been manipulated away somehow. And they're still moving because masculinity wants to move. And so they're often moving in circles and it feels very stuck. And and so when I see a lot of guys, they come out of divorce and they've they've allowed, not allowed, but the arrangement in their partnership is that their partner also does a lot of the purpose building and creating that purpose. And so they find themselves after divorce circling. They're still moving, but they're moving in circles.

Purpose After Divorce And The Pillars

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Chasing their tail a little bit. That's a good, yeah, that's a good analogy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very common. And and that's why it can take a month to 10 years is to find that purpose. So getting back to, you know, what does that look like? I I typically will tell guys start with your kids.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

One purpose.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

There's the the big overall purpose. It's to, I want to be a millionaire by the time I'm 30, or I want to. I was gonna say, if you've got kids, let your kids be the anchor. Let your kids be the core and you build from that. So the next one is so after your kids, it's your body, whether that means getting back in the gym or just some sort of exercise and eating right, because those two things, maybe not kids so much, but definitely working on your body, you control that. That's that agency that you're talking about. Is you start with things that you can control and things that you are absolutely committed to. So your kids and your body.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

And then probably I would add one more after that. Yeah, financial, right? Exactly. Kind of the three pillars, yeah, for sure. Yes. Dude, were you reading my notes? You're you're kind of like Dallas. You you guys are prophetic in in how you put this together. But I mean, I I I joke with that, but it's it's the it's it's it's true though, because we've you know we've got the benefit of being down the road here a little bit and having done this and also do this work every single day to understand these three three these three pillars. But it is incredibly, incredibly important to to focus on those things. So, you know, Dallas, if you're as opposed to working backwards, if you're starting with, and and Rick, maybe you can comment on this, if you're starting with this in those that time post-divorce, these these three pillars, what are you doing physically, financially, and as a as a parent to build that foundation? Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Um that's a question.

SPEAKER_03 26:45

Yeah, that's a question. What yeah, what specifically? Like, what are you so it's uh yeah, we're saying, okay, you need to pay attention to physical, financial, and and and parental, but like what do you need to be doing with those in order to build that foundation?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

So if confidence is what stability looks like from the outside, it's about it's about creating stability. Get your kids, get get the uh the custody plan down and locked in and and pick them up, drop them off at practice and school and all that stuff, and come up with a way to talk to your ex in a way that's respectful, and the kids see it, and they they're like, okay, they at least they're talking to each other. If you can. Not everybody can do that.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Finances, there's finances are the kind of thing that has multiple dependencies on other people. It's usually a job or something like that. You don't have quite as much agency there, but it is, you know, you need to have an income. And but the core one is your kids and your body. And for people who are just starting out, I highly recommend start with your body because as soon as you start working on it, the next day you feel it. You feel the acid in your muscles, and you're like, oh yeah, okay. And and it you feel it, and that's that's what we're after. And working out on a regular basis or exercising starts to create a time-based structure, and that's that leads to confidence and the confidence that you bring to dating eventually.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

So Rick, I love I love the word structure. I think structure is really where it's at. In the finances, that structure looks like a budget. You have your income side, you have your expenses side, and you want to make sure you've got something left over at the end of the month. That's the structure. And when it comes to the workouts, you know, going in regularity, consistency, that's what provides the structure. When it comes to the diet, I mean, for me, basically, you've you've got a calorie budget very similar to a dollar budget. There's a certain amount of calories that you burn with your active metabolic rate. You want to know what that is, and you want to start consuming at or maybe a little less than that to get yourself in the shape that you want. And then obviously with the children, you want the structure as well. When you when you exercise, when you uh provide and then follow an exercise structure within yourself as a man, and you do that consistently, week after week, month after month, and that's part of who you are, and that's part of the the heat and the basic the basic uh fiber that you bring to a date. Women are gonna relax into it because you're structured, you have that masculine frame, you have this this like, oh, he's solid, and and your body shows it, and your pocketbook shows it, and you know, your your structure with you know your kids and you know your ex, it shows it. She's gonna look at that and relax because she's like, good, I don't have to bring any structure to the table. This guy actually has a surplus of structure, and that means that as a woman, I can relax and be free. I can be more carefree, don't have to worry about things as much. I can get in the passenger seat of the car and let him drive.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Yeah, yeah. And I want to draw the I I want to uh draw the line between doing that post-divorce in your life for your kids, because you need to do that for your kids, in number one, right? That's just a that's a given. But that that then translates into your dating life. So if you take this mindset, which is building that foundation first with your family for and for yourself, that will directly translate to being able to show that, like, like Rick talked about in the in the beginning, just the fact that you committed, that you had kids, like you've already, and and then we've talked about in the in other episodes, Dallas, you've already got something built in there, guys. You just don't maybe know that you that you do have that, right? And and and and I know a lot of guys listening are going, oh my god, like working out. And Dallas is talking about diet, and then I gotta exercise, and now I've got to put together a budget. And I didn't, my wife always did the budget, and and it's like, okay, yes, that's probably true. Another reason why you should take those four seasons and take one of those things. You don't have to do it all at once, right? Now you're gonna have to keep parenting the whole time, okay. I hope. But take one, the physical fitness, like you said, Rick. Amen. It is the easiest, fastest thing to start having some immediate results for for your mental, emotional, for your physical, like it will impact everything else. So just start small. And that and that can be like it can just be starting walks. Some guys that I work with, I'm like, all right, you're just gonna walk 15 minutes today. That's it. That's all you're gonna start. That's all you're gonna start doing. And and and you're gonna get up five minutes earlier. Like something, like something like that. So you don't have to do it all once. You're not gonna, and this is a big thing that I get with a lot of the divorce dads, because we're dead, you know, we're we're fixers, met, we're men, right? We want to fix stuff. So immediately post divorce, it's like, I've changed it my whole life, I'm fixing everything. Like they get in men's groups and they do this, and they're like subscribed to all that and everything else, and it's like, slow down, guys. Like, you're not gonna go find the why the new wife. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Slow down. These, you know, these three pillars that we're talking about here, take one for it. What what what's the what's the saying, guys? It takes uh 21 days to to change a habit and 90 days to change your life, like make a lifestyle change, right? Yep, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

You know, the coaching I do is built on the idea that there's eight different areas of life, and you can pick one that has leverage that can bring up the other ones. You know, a rising tide brings up other boats. And so if you work on your physical health, often it helps with your social life and it brings that confidence to your job and and it affects everything. So the other one is is social, and so we're sitting here, you know. I I I really want to emphasize what you just said, Jude. Take your time. We're we're three guys sitting here, you know, throwing advice at you, but it is four seasons, it's a good 12 months of don't beat yourself up over oh I gotta do all this right now. So I'm glad you said that.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

Yeah, well, and and the other thing is is I don't think any of us are are suggesting don't talk to women or avoid women or like you know, throw yourself up in the house. I think we're just saying, you know, don't like don't jump to that next relationship, right? Like you can be social. Even Dallas and I have talked on other episodes of recreational dating and and and doing that. Like that's that's healthy, right? Like you want to be testing that having warm interactions with everybody in in your life, including members of the opposite sex. Like, that's all good. Just don't, you know, don't jump into that relationship because you're gonna it's gonna be disappointing. Taking it back to what we're talking about, that will create more anxiety, that's gonna make you feel like crap. You you talked about, well, both of you talked about like the ups and downs, or the the the disappointment cycle, or the I'm not, I hear this all the time. Well, I'm not dating you, it's been awful, it's awful dating out there. Like you get all this doom and gloom, and it's like, come on, like it's it's it's really not, but that's because you haven't done the work yourself. Like, so you'll avoid all those ups and downs if you have built that foundation. Because like then Dallas says, well, while you do might you might take, and and I guess a hit is not really the good word for it, right, Dallas. It's just like like reflection if a rel when a relationship ends. Or like that's how I feel now. Before it was I I felt like I was taking a confidence hit. Now I feel like, well, it's an opportunity for me to reflect, but I don't I don't take a hit, right? So you got to get to that point. Yeah, yeah.

Masculine Direction And Feminine Experience

SPEAKER_01 34:37

You know, and and when we're you know, this episode's talking about you know performance and how it's a bad thing. Right. And I I want to reframe it here, Harold. When you take that first year and you're getting back to basics where you're you're working out, you're doing exercises, you're connecting with your kids, you're creating stability. That is actually genuine real performance. Yeah, you're establishing an individual performance level and you're a winner on a first person level. Yeah, you're doing it privately, nobody's looking, but you know that you've gone to the gym 50 weeks in a row over the last year because you took too off to go to Maui or something. But but you you know that you're doing that. And then when you show up to the date, you're not then beginning a performance, you're demonstrating a high performance level that you've had as an individual man by yourself individually. And dude, I I I can totally hear and see all the guys rolling their eyes and like, oh, I have to do all this work, you have to do all this work. Yeah, let's just make it clear if you want masculine energy that is sexy and appealing, not just to women, but to everyone, that comes from discipline.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Doing the work by itself, achieving a level of performance to the point where you're winning requires discipline. All masculinity comes from discipline. There's no two ways about it.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Yeah, you've got to drive to that outcome, that purpose. If you don't mind, I I'd like to share the the other diagram, the feminine diagram, because this is it's completely different than the masculine. It's and it's pretty simple.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

You're saying so Rick, hold on. You're saying there's differences between men and women and masculine and no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

There's differences between diagrams about diagrams about democracy.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

I just sometimes it's confusing out there. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Same colors though. So the feminine like to have experiences, and and they'll remember the experiences. There were colors, there was food, there were people, there were conversations, all the aspects of that experience. And then they want to have feelings and emotions about that experience, and they want to reprocess those emotions. So they talk about it, they think about it, they write about it, and those emotions lead to the next experience, and then the next one, and the next one. And it's a completely different and it can seem a little chaotic from the outside as a masculine person. But when you put the two together, it actually and it works. The masculine is driving in a direction, and the feminine is creating experiences, and and you put the two together, it is pretty amazing. And so I wanted to share that because the feminine is looking for a guide, a guiding masculinity going somewhere, and the masculinity is wanting to create purpose that feeds and pleases the feminine. And so that's just my take on it. But mass good, healthy masculinity wants good outcomes for the feminine, and yeah, that's how they work together. And so creating experiences is core, I believe. This is a question for Dallas. Creating experiences for the feminine is what creates successful dating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Does that sound right? Absolutely. There's a bunch of things that tie in. So one of them is I talk with my clients about how the masculine is the author and the feminine is the editor. So our job is from scratch to create, you know, design a date, invite her to it, all of that. We're we're writing it from there. And then we leave it up to her to edit and change according to her preferences, to tweak the experience. And in order to have a really good story, a really good book, you need both an author and an editor involved. The author by himself is only going to come up with a so-so book. The editor doesn't have any raw material to work with.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

Yeah.

Honest Vulnerability Without Oversharing

SPEAKER_01 38:27

So that that's the first thing. The second thing is I I talk with men that women respond to the experience they have in your presence. It I agree that the events are the experience that she's happening, but on an even more fundamental level, what is the experience I have in this man's company? I I show up and he's nervous, he's performing, he feels he has to prove something. That's not an experience that most women want to have again because that's going to spin up their nervous energy through the mirroring and through through the you know, just being in the company of it, that'll spin up their own nervous energy. When a man shows up with some with some deep free agent performance where he's really achieved things, her experience is going to be relaxed. She's going to feel calm and regulated in his presence. She's going, you know, and particularly if he has reached a level of achievement in his own life where he can laugh at himself, where he can he, you know, because humor really is a sign that I've got nothing to worry about. Yeah. There's there's clowning, which is different. But when I can genuinely laugh at myself because everything's taken care of in my life, you know, I just had the oil changed in my car, I've got a bunch of money in the account, you know, I've I've been working out like crazy and eating well, so I can have these hot wings and not worry about it, followed by followed by cheesecake and all the beer I want. You know, and I can laugh about it because this is my feasting moment. Well, that part of the experience, she's gonna be like, wow, you know, if I snuggle up with this guy, man, I get to relax, I get to have this experience. And then within the container, she can then edit that experience and you know, color it different colors and you know, you know, prepare a picnic basket to bring with it and go off on weird tangents, you know, on the road trip. And that's you know, and and that experience. But but her ex, you know, a lot of guys think a woman wants a resume, you know, that she I need to have, you know, six-pack abs, six feet tall, six, you know, uh, six-figure income. You know, there's a bunch of other things. And if I bring this resume, she's gonna like me and she's gonna say yes. And it's like, and women might even tell us this, but you know, state of preferences versus revealed preferences. Right. When you're actually there, the woman goes for the other guy that just made them laugh. Well, what was her experience with the man that made that made her laugh versus the guy that was so serious and nervous and hoping he gets the job based on his resume?

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Yeah. There is a whole other component we're leaving out, and that is that the the other person across the table at the date has also gone through a breakup of some kind, potentially a divorce, and has kids and is dealing with a lot of the same stuff we're talking about from the feminine side. And if if you want to get really serious with that person, you're going to encounter their constraints and their stories and all of that that they're working on as well. So it's just another reason to potentially hold off from getting serious.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

Well, and let's talk about that too, Rick, because that's a really great point, is we're all a work in progress in general, right? No matter where we're at. How do you communicate with somebody? So what Dallas just described, I love I love how Dallas describes things because it's it's what I aspire to be every time, right? Like when you describe the the life, okay, but I'm not there, right? There's so many parts of my life, I'm still working on one. How do you do that post-divorce just and and describe that without without trauma dumping or like whatever else to to somebody that you're you know that that you are that masculine, that you are that you are working towards something, but you might not be there yet? I don't think we're ever fully there, right? Um we shouldn't ever fully be there if we're in our masculine, we should always be striving and working. But how do we do that? How do we describe that post-divorce in conversation with you know without sounding, you know, like we don't have our our you know what together?

SPEAKER_00 42:26

You know what we're really talking about, we haven't brought up the word authentic. It's it gets used a lot, but I'm just gonna say I I'm a big proponent of just being completely honest. And and this is where I'm at, and this is what I'm this is why I'm dating. That's what I hope to get out of it. And you don't have to say much more than that unless you get asked questions. I'm not sure. I don't know if that's what you're asking to.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

Well, Dallas knows I really need really specific rules and scripts and like you know, directions. So give me a give me a script, Dallas. What am I giving you a script to? I don't think I'm no, no, I I how do we how do we convey that? How do we convey that to um so Rick brought up the put Rick brought up the point that we're sitting across from somebody that's going through, likely maybe even gone through a doors like us, that is having the same challenges, and we are post-divorce, and our life feels like chaos. We're working on our masculine, everything we just described, but we're starting to date, and but and but we want to let them we we want to be authentic. Uh the the word that that Rick was bringing up about where we're at, but not sound like not be trauma dumping or you know, just like like or performative, like we're talking about, like we're not performing or we're not faking it to we're we're making it, like we're being authentic.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

I got a script. But still masculine. Yeah. I do, you know I do. Rick, you work with couples also, right? I do in relationships. So when you're so let's start it, let's reverse engineer this. Okay. So when when there's a couple and the people are not being authentic with each other, how do you help them be authentic? Because I think being authentic with a stranger or someone that you've only met on a couple of dates is probably even more challenged. Well, I don't know. They both have their challenges. But let's let's start maybe with how you help people be authentic in some of the couples' work that you do.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Yeah, here's a great question to ask yourself. What's at risk if you say what the the thing you don't want to say, what could happen? What's the worst thing that can happen? And unless we'll just sort of explore that, it's probably not gonna be that bad in real life, but let's that's that's where most people get stuck. What's the risk?

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Tonight, that's the risk. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

Or this person doesn't like me or won't go out with me again.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah. And surprising, maybe it's not surprising, that's the same issue that most guys have in their marriage as well. Not gonna have sex tonight, and we're gonna have conflict, and tomorrow it's it's gonna be grumpy, grumpy time in the house. And so that's the risk. But it's it's actually it it's deeper than that, just saying the words. But sex is one of those things that has for guys, it's it's it communicates you're the guy, I've picked you, and everything about you is good enough to be here in this moment and have sex. And in a marriage, for a lot of guys, that's what they're living for. But if they've developed their stability for themselves, they're they've got their physical health in place, their kids are good, the relationship is good enough. If they've got that stability, they're not so reliant on sex as the main meat, the main part of the meal, if that makes sense. And it puts them at risk that I'm just after sex. And that that puts a guy at a lot of risk. That he's thinking, there's a lot of risk here. If I say things the wrong way, I'm gonna lose out. And that's not I I I don't know. Dallas, you're I'm I'm Dallas knows how to articulate what I'm saying. I can tell.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

I think so. Well, I think what it is is they're setting they're setting sex up as the single point of failure in their happiness system. Yes. And you don't ever, you know, as a man, like if you've got one point that you're relying on, like you're, you know, two is one, one is none, you know, three's for me in any survival scenario. Right. I don't want one single point of failure. I want to, you know, and I think here, honestly, we're talking about the reward survival system of the dopamine in the body.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

You know, sex is a very, very powerful source of dopamine for men.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

And, you know, and there's there's the there's the uh phasic dopamine, you know, which is the spikes, the the quick hits that we get that come from, you know, junk food, alcohol, video games, pornography, you know, and and sex. And then there's the there's the tonic dopamine system that is much more grounded and healthy. Uh it's sort of the the complex carbohydrates as opposed to the sugary carbohydrates. Yeah. And if you and when you have that masculine energy engaged in yourself, and you're drawing the desire from your wife or your partner or your date to have sex with you, when you're drawing them towards you, that that that create that actually creates a more healthy, balanced cocktail in the reward system. Because the desire from her means that you're not grabbing after you're you're not you're not trying to get a quick hit where you can. You've got a you've got a very complex source of things. If you came to that date, or if, or let's say in the marriage, if you're coming to that discussion at the end of the day after you've been to the gym, yeah, you are coming there with a whole different level of groundedness and authenticity. And I think you're I I I'd I'd love to know what you have to say about this, Rick, but I know for me, like like right now, I am currently downstairs redoing flooring in my condo.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

And it is one of the most grueling processes. It was it was a glued-down laminate, and I've been scraping it up and I'm laying it, and I'm, you know, and I'm doing it by myself, which is like extra slow and grueling.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

But there is something so so just ready to be honest when I'm done. I just, you know, uh, and and you know, dealing with conflict, you know, there was a you know, some text messages, you know, that like I need to reply to. And after I worked, I was like, let's just let's just tell the truth here. You know, I'm this feels a little stressful to me because of this and that. And I lay it out, and the response I get is thank you for just telling me the truth. Yeah. That's yeah, I what I get is a thank you. Yeah, and I gotta say, like, as a man, I think what most of us want to hear is thank you for being the way you are. Like appreciating the fact that, like, first of all, thank you for like doing flooring. Like, that's awesome, you know? And then two, thank you for being honest, for being authentic. And I, you know, like here's the last thing I feel like I'm going in a lot of directions here. The other thing that I tell men is uh the the clients I work with is that the feminine is inherently more vulnerable in life, and we forget that all the time as guys because we're not getting the wow wow wah that we want. Um, you gotta remember that women are in a more vulnerable place. So we need to lead, we need to put ourselves out there first. And whoever goes first in that vulnerability of the authenticity, you're kind of the hero.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

When when you're the one going, you know what? Yo, can I, you know, like a script here, dude. You know, it's like, can I be honest for a minute? This is what I would say with somebody, can I be honest with you for a minute? Can I tell you what it is I really want here? Like all this other stuff doesn't really matter. You know what I really want is this. What really matters to me is this. When I cut through the crap and I'm vulnerable that way, oh, that just it it it burns off all the fog. Yeah, and and we're and we're in a good place. And then if I went there first, first of all, in myself, I feel proud and good and clean. I've got no regrets afterward because I went there and I I said what I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

And then secondly, looking back on it, I mean, like, I love that I can count on this man to break ground and go there first.

Rebuilding Money After A Financial Wipeout

SPEAKER_03 50:21

Yeah, right. And and we're not saying like when we say vulnerability, it doesn't mean that that you're just dumping all of like you're not having a therapy session, right? Being vulnerable is saying, hey, I'm not, you know, I my finances aren't quite where I want them to be yet. I'm rebuilding and you know, I'm doing this, or I've started this business, or I'm I'm working, or or doing whatever to do that. But to your point, Dallas, that's being in your in your masculine helps you to just do that. You just do. We do, right? You just do that. So if you're surrounding all of your life with the masculine things, like you're talking about doing flooring or whatever that might be. So divorce, this gives you guys, you're going your life is going to look different than it does now in 12 months. Yeah, just it's going to. There's no it's already changing, it's probably in the middle of chaos, it's going to change. You have the ability to decide which direction you want that to go and how you want that to change. Right. So get into that. Your your masculine. That's an opportunity for maybe if you liked home improvements and you didn't do those before, start doing those again. If you liked motorcycle, I just I bought a motorcycle. So I just I put uh to teach my daughters how to to ride a motorcycle. We're going to Moab this weekend, right? I had to my buddy and came over and we we had to put it together. We built we built a motorcycle on Monday. Uh so so and I was like, this is so much fun. It was frustrating, a little parse of it, but we're done. And it's like, this is so much, this was so much fun. And I'll tell you what, it's gonna be so much fun putting my daughters on that and teaching them how to ride a motorcycle. Because got here's a little side tip that dads don't ever let your daughters get on a motorcycle with a guy. Okay, anyway, that's just a something, you know, just a dad tip there. But my point being, get into your masculine, like you said, Dallas, all these points, because all these points then help you to show up to that date. And and I and I also want to to bring in, you know, we talked about codependency and guys that are giving love, which I think was what you were describing, Dallas. Like, like we're giving, we're giving in order to get back. Stop, stop that. If you're creating this life, if you're creating all these points, like you said, one failure point of her not liking you or didn't like how you pipe your hair or whatever, is not gonna wreck your life. Because there's gonna be one, another one that's gonna go, Wow, he's awesome. I want him, right? And that's the one you're looking for, trust me.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

So there's some natural tension. I just want to, we've already said it, but I'll say it again that there is some timing that has to happen here. Coming right off a divorce, a lot of guys they don't have the finances, they're living in their the the basement of their marital home or whatever. And the story that they have to tell, if they're gonna be honest on a date, is not a story that they want to share. And I get that, and that's just the reality of coming off a divorce. And so that's probably a good reason to wait, unless you're gonna be really honest and say, you know what, I'm dating just to have fun. And and and if that's what it is, then be honest. Right. So I I get asked that question well, what do I say? I I don't, you know, I'm this is my life right now and it sucks. So what am I supposed to say?

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Well, when it's my life and it sucks. You know, when it comes to it, that's what you say. Well, and and it and it does, but I I I just make my life better. Yeah. Hey, never know.

SPEAKER_03 53:59

Shoot your shot.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

So when it when it comes to the finances, I think there is a way to slightly reframe this. Somebody who's sitting on, you know, a trust fund, you know, okay, they've got a bunch of money, that's great. Well, net worth is only one thing. Are you are you coming away each month, each year with a net gain or a net loss? That's a whole different metric. There are people with a bunch of money that are slowly draining it because they're not being productive. And those those men are not particularly masculine in the process because they're not producing anything.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

If, however, I just went through a divorce and I basically, I, you know, like surfing term, I had a wipeout. You know, like I got knocked off my board, smacked on the sand at the bottom of the ocean. I'm like, ow.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Yeah.

Stability Audit And Closing Links

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Come back. I gotta I gotta take a breather for a second here. You know, I I had a wipe out. That doesn't mean I'm not a flipping surfer. That doesn't mean that I'm gonna give up on the waves. That's part of what happens. And I think, you know, when you bring to it, it's like, well, you know, I just went through a divorce, so you know, my, you know, I had a bit of a wipeout there financially, but I'm on track and I'm going and I'm rebuilding and I'm going where I want to go. Women don't necessarily I yeah, I mean, women care about the net worth, but more than that, they care about a man that's going somewhere with his finances.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

What they want to know is that I'm providing a surplus every month. They know that that's what's really important. So when you present to them, it's like, yeah, I've got about I've got about$8,000 in my savings account right now. Like that's my total net worth. However, I'm adding to that$800 a month because I'm on a budget and I'm with the kids and we're making good decisions. It's like that is something to be proud of.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

That that is exercising discipline. And any woman that listens to it, particularly if she's been through a divorce, she knows what the wipeout is. She knows it's traumatic. But if you're like, no, but I'm a guy that gets back up, gets in the saddle, and gets going in the direction that he wants to do. Because to your diagram, Rick, I don't stop moving and I don't start picking directions, and I'm gonna keep going there no matter how much this stuff gets thrown in my face.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

Right. Right, right. Yeah. So we're we're coming up on time here, guys. I wanted to to end on us giving what I'm calling a stability audit for for the for the dog for the dads listening. And that is that each one of us is gonna share one thing that that that that the dads can check on this week that is showing that they're they're stabilizing. And I'll I'll start and you while you guys think. And and that for me is are you making your bed every morning? It's very, very again, starting simple, right? Is your life in your life's in chaos? You got to get up, you're trying to figure out how to get breakfast for the kids, and then get to work, and then pick them up, and then the car doesn't start. And like, okay, but did you make your bed? Because that's one stable thing that you can do that is going to just provide a nice environment in your room. It's also going to demonstrate to your children that you that you are creating a nice environment that you are stable, that you are structured and disciplined. It sounds so stupid and so simple, but it is absolutely demonstrating so many things to yourself and to your family to do. So that that is my stability audit. Are you making your bed every single morning when you get out? Like it. Yep. Rick?

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Yep. So on a date, how about this? On a date, give her the space to be able to say what she wants to say and reiterate the experience. A lot of guys believe that filling the space with talking and talking, especially talking about their sports or the whatever interests them is a good date. And there is a quiet power to just being a good listener. And it's very powerful on dates. And to be able to do it requires that kind of confidence that comes from stability, meaning I I'm good. I don't need to say everything about everything. I'm I'm good. So how about you? How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Yeah, and listening, and listening is an excellent, it's an excellent antidote to needing to perform.

SPEAKER_03 58:20

Yeah, yeah, great point. Yeah, great point. Dallas, your stability audit.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Okay, for me, the most stabilizing activity I do is being grateful for something.

SPEAKER_03 58:30

Yeah, good one.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

I would say for the dads out there, tell your children how grateful you are to have them in your life.

SPEAKER_03 58:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Tell tell them, you know, and when they're not there, make the gratitude statement. I'm I'm grateful that my children are healthy. I'm grateful that my children are still in the same state as me. I'm grateful that I get to see my kids as much as I do. Whatever it is. Yeah. Of course we can look at that the negative way, all the stuff you're not getting with them. But to look at it from the positive, grateful side, gratitude is what transforms the experience, or I should say, what chooses our experience from the event that happens.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

Yep. Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

And nothing's nothing stabilizes me more than than uh practicing and particularly articulating gratitude.

SPEAKER_03 59:13

Yeah. Good stuff, guys. Yeah. Fantastic. Rick, thank you so much for being here. Share with uh the dads how they can how they can touch base with with you.

SPEAKER_00 59:24

Okay. It's it's a bit of a long URL, but here it goes. Okay. Dot lifemaps.online forward slash podcast. I built a landing page just for us. And people can get on there and sign up and do this session with me where we go through the eight areas of your life and find that one leverage area that can bring up all the other areas. And if you don't want to do that, you can get a guide and learn about it. So map.lifemaps.online forward slash podcast. Otherwise, my counseling is touchbase counseling.com. Awesome. Honestly, I love doing coaching. Counseling's good. Coaching's better.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, and again, guys, if if you don't like any of the jokes that you heard today or ever, touch base with Rick. If you had a bad experience dating and you're blaming Dallas and I, just contact Rick and let him know because it's all his fault. So that's right. All right, gentlemen, thank you so much, Rick. It's such a pleasure to have you and take care. Thanks, guys. Thanks for coming on, Rick.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

All right.